Talk:Monk/Archive 1
UBAB nuts, can't work out how to directly link to the UBAB table... the AC in the title disrupts a basic Monk#sectionName -- Defunc7 *Try the UBAB now. -- Pstarky 20:25, 10 Sep 2005 (PDT) :*umm that not right.... I look into it again. -- Pstarky 20:26, 10 Sep 2005 (PDT) *I think it best to remove the UBAB article as you dont think we need a actircle for it, and where the UBAB wiki'ed is direct it staight to the table. -- Pstarky :*I disagree with with Defunc7; I think UBAB warrents it's own article. It's something users of this wiki could search for and it involves a significant NWN bug that is often exploited. It's just like some Monk feats: they only apply to characters with the Monk class, yet they still have their own articles. Why should the UBAB rule be different? However, majority rules, so if others disagree, I'll go with the majority. -- Austicke 21:28, 10 Sep 2005 (PDT) ::*Well from that point of view, with it been like a monk feat. I think your right Alec, UBAB would be good if it had a article. Its the way we started the wiki lets keep it that way. I will still keep the UBAB table in the monk article, but have that section in it own article. -- Pstarky 21:40, 10 Sep 2005 (PDT) Miscellaneous questions " Their stunning fist stops casters from being able to cast spells for a round. " Isn't stun fist 3 rounds? -- 15:35, 15 December 2005 *Yep. -- Austicke 13:33, 16 Dec 2005 (PST) Aren't some of the monk's special abilities negated when the monk wears armor or uses a shield? Which ones? -- 20:34, 13 January 2006 * Anything besides clothes 69.221.234.98 19:16, 22 August 2006 (PDT) With respect to monks using magic gloves (Gloves of Hin Fist for example), can anyone confirm the AB provided bypasses Damage Reduction? I'm asking because my PaleMaster/Monk, who shilled out half a million gold for Gloves of the Hin Fist +10 could not damage Mephisto. I then reloaded, bought a Kama +6, upgraded to +8, then was able to damage ol' horned-head. Also had great difficulty damaging the Guardian of the Path (Slaad) in the Puzzler room while using gloves +7. Is it just bosses that require an actual magical weapon of certain plus? Blacknight 09:17, 23 June 2006 (PDT) *They should count as bypassing DR of the appropriate amount. Check its not him being resistant to blunt vs slash. GhostNWN 09:54, 23 June 2006 (PDT) How does critical damage work with fists? What's the threat range and multiplier? Relatedly, how does dual-wielding affect fists? Nevermind, fists aren't abidextrous unfortunately. Kirbysdl 16:57, 18 August 2006 (PDT) * They get the absolute minimum: 20, x2. Also, although you don't "dual wield" with fists, flurry of blows has the same effect. -- Resonance 11:15, 19 August 2006 (PDT) I'm confused by the ten-attack discussion in the Notes section. For example, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting claims that only one off-hand attack is added. Does the article mean to say that the combined effects of dual-wield feats gives a total of two off-hand attacks? Also, can a PC with 20 monk levels and 1 fighter level reach 6 attacks (instead of 16 monk 4 fighter) or does the fighter level count as an epic level (and therefore not add extra attacks)? Kirbysdl 16:57, 18 August 2006 (PDT) * The combined effects are a total of two off-hand attacks. All levels past 20 count as epic levels and do not add extra attacks. -- Resonance 11:15, 19 August 2006 (PDT) :* Another source of my initial confusion. The wording of 4 attacks +2 attacks from the UBAB is a little odd. The 12 Monk + 4 other BAB by itself gives 6 attacks: 16/13/10/7/4/1. Perhaps a better way of explaining it is that the raw BAB gives 4 attacks (16/11/6/1) but since a Monk's Unarmed BAB has lighter requirements for new attacks, what would otherwise be 4 attacks becomes 6 (16/11/6/1 --> 16/13/10/7/4/1). Perhaps I'm especially dense, but a few extra words of explanation might make this clearer. Kirbysdl 15:09, 9 October 2006 (PDT) New Flurry Attack Bonuses column math does not pan out. Look at the transition between level 4 and 5. The values should NOT change. Original author should re-calculate. Bromium 13:16, 20 February 2007 (PST) * I'm not the original author, but I fixed it. Personally, I don't see the point of adding that column (I know how to subtract 2), but since someone thinks it should be there, I don't object. The table header is rather long now, though. --The Krit 14:16, 23 February 2007 (PST) Monk speed and boots of speed Fixed the monk speed table (after doing lots of tests). According to my tests (module where PC runs from A to B with 2 triggers on the way, first trigger writes a time stamp, second trigger calculates the difference) the table in the manual is wrong. The speed increases at level 3,6,9,...,36,39 by 10%. At level 39 it's 230% (or 9,2 meters/second). Also it seems that monk speed plus haste effect is a little bit broken. A hasted monk (boots of speed) runs much faster than he should. For a hasted monk the speed is 175% (level 3), 200% (level 6), 225% (9), 250% (12), 275% (15), 300% (18), 325% (21), ~350% (24), ~375% (27), ~400% (30). After level 30 it might be possible that my testing environment had problems with the incredible high speed. At least the speed increase was a little bit slowlier: ~407.8% (33), ~417.45% (36) and ~427.15% (39). So maybe we should add a column for hasted monk speed.--Kamiryn 10:14, 15 January 2006 (PST) Module for testing movement.--Kamiryn 00:38, 16 January 2006 (PST) : You should try combining barbarian fast movement (Barb 1/monk 39) for extra fun :-) -- 17 January 2007 :: Monk and barbarian speed do not stack though ;) Kail Pendragon 11:47, 17 January 2007 (PST) from the main article by (talk) :(For Future editing attemts, pre-epic monk gets his speed enhanced to +150% his basic speed, and NO higher. According to 3.0 PHP and NwN rules. Stop reverting the article to crap.) In case of any doubts i rather believe Kamiryn than an unregistered editor referring to the sourcebooks. the manual is outdated and NWN doesn't follow the sourcebooks literally everywhere. Kamiryn on the other hand is very likely to have checked his information before editing this page. SO believe it or not: i'm going to undo your edit right away. Gruftlord 13:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC) : I have also tested the monk speed in the module posted above by Kamiryn after seeing the table show weird speed bonuses again (45%??? 50% for 5 levels?). I've tested levels from 14 to 27, with and without haste, and my results show that, in both cases, speed increases do in fact happen every 3 levels, that is on levels 15, 18, 21, 24 and 27. So I'm going to go ahead and edit the speed bonuses accordingly. Has anyone else tested this and came up with different results? -- Littletall 02:47, 23 April 2009 (UTC) Formula After much testing with different speed increases, I have found a formula that generalizes monk (and barbarian) speed increase. The formula is Total Speed = Adjusted Speed + Monk Bonus * Adjusted Speed + Monk Bonus * Base Speed where adjusted speed is the base speed after movement increase/decrease effects. This means that when the adjusted speed is the base speed, both monk and barbarian do double the described speed increase. Though Barbarian speed uses the same equation as monk speed, it also introduces a cap to movement speed at 150% base movement speed. This means that a non-barbarian with a 60% speed bonus would move faster than a barbarian with the same bonus. WhiZard 21:24, January 31, 2011 (UTC) * So, Total Speed = Base*(100% + effect modifiers)*(100% + monk bonus) + Base*(monk bonus)? If so, it is just the last term that looks off, as if the game forgets it already factored in the monk bonus so factors it in a second time (forgetting the effect modifiers the second time). But when there are no movement increase/decrease effects (adjusted speed is the base speed, right?), the monk bonus is effectively doubled? Doesn't that contradict Kamiryn's tests above? --The Krit 18:04, February 1, 2011 (UTC) :* Yes the normal bonus is twice, in direct contradiction of Kamiryn's first paragraph, but at 50% it matches perfectly with Kamiryn's hasted speeds (e.g. monk 10% bonus while hasted becomes 1.1 * 1.5 + 0.1 = 1.75). Haste is treated exactly like a 50% movement speed increase even in my tests. Perhaps Kamiryn was only testing the levels at which the speed changed and didn't check up on the actual size of the speed increase. However, I have enough data to be confident that both monk and barbarian have a double bonus at base speed. WhiZard 22:44, February 3, 2011 (UTC) ::* Hmm... it would be nice to get someone else to verify, or an explanation for how Kamiryn could calculate +130% at level 39 when apparently its +260%. (Is the 9.2 m/s figure accurate?) But I don't have the time for that at the moment. --The Krit 00:44, February 5, 2011 (UTC) :::* Found a ciritical flaw in my tests. I had assumed that EffectSpeedIncrease(0) would not effect the speed (it doesn't for non-monks/barbarians) so my tests each used one single movement speed effect. Multiple applications of 0 movement speed increase increased the number of times the speed was added. The problem I soon found, when looking at multiple movement speed effects, is that the effects with monk speed became compounded. The problem with monk speed is that the speed bonus is applied recursively after each speed multiplication. Thus a normal monk would travel at: base speed + base speed * monk bonus. Give the monk haste and the speed would be: 1.5* base speed + 1.5 base speed * monk bonus + base speed * monk bonus. Add in expeditious retreat and the speed would be 2.25 * base speed + 2.25 * base speed * monk bonus + 1.5 * base speed * monk bonus + base speed * monk bonus. A level three monk would thus travel at 2.725 * base speed with both haste and expeditious retreat. Without monk speed there seems to be a 1.5 * base speed cap (even for barbarians) so such stacking does not reach phenomenal levels, however monks do have a 3.00 * base speed cap after multiplying the speed increase in but before adding the monk bonus thereafter. So the fastest a monk can move is 3.00 + monk speed * base speed. WhiZard 15:51, February 5, 2011 (UTC) :::* I looked to see what happens if a speed effect is removed, and I found that the game simply recalculates the speed from scratch adding in the monk bonus once thereafter. So a level 3 monk with haste move 1.75, add expeditious retreat to 2.725 then let the expeditious retreat wear off and he moves at 1.60. This recalculated speed is simply: adjusted speed + monk bonus * base speed. Thus to correct monk speed so that the monk gets his intended speed bonus, all one has to do is apply DelayCommand( 0.1, ApplyEffectToObject( DURATION_TYPE_TEMPORARY, EffectMovementSpeedIncrease(0), oTarget, 0.01)); whereever there is a speed change (or haste application) scripted. Fortunately, stealth mode, detect mode, walk, and run speeds are all part of the base speed component, and thus do not have any impact on complicating the monk speed recursive problem. WhiZard 16:41, February 6, 2011 (UTC) ::::* Just thought of something... haste and expeditious retreat stack now? --The Krit 18:30, February 6, 2011 (UTC) :::::* I think I get your meaning now. The spell haste does not stack with expeditious retreat. Pretty much any other application of haste does stack (except for blinding speed after expeditious retreat). My tests involved giving haste to the monk by equipping perma-haste gear. In a non-perma haste world, one might build a sorc 36/monk 3/pal 1 to make use of extended mass haste stacking with extended expeditious retreat for over 7 turns of movement at 2.725 * base speed. WhiZard 18:00, February 10, 2011 (UTC) * Ok, I think I see what is going on. Start with the hypothesis that the intended behavior is for monk speed to stack additively with effect speed increases, as in speed = base + base*(effect bonus) + base*(monk bonus). With this hypothesis, speed is correct when the game recalculates it from scratch. However, when an effect increases speed, the game takes a shortcut, incorrectly assuming the existing speed is the base on which to add the effect, but getting the correct base to account for monk speed: new speed = (old speed) + (old speed)*(effect bonus) + base*(monk bonus). This would be correct if the old speed was the base speed, but fails if the PC already has a speed boost. (Under the assumption that the old speed is + base*(monk bonus), this works out to be the same as the original proposed formula.) : This raises a question about how multiple movement speed increases are supposed to stack. The calculation upon applying a movement speed increase causes movement speed increases to stack multiplicatively (then monk speed stacks again, but the second time additively). What happens if you force a recalculation? Suppose you took a PC, added haste and expeditious retreat, tested the speed, then applied a 0.01-duration movement speed increase and tested the speed again? We know a level 3 monk would be clocked at 2.725 before the recalculation; would the speed be 2.35 (multiplicative effect stacking) or 2.1 (additive stacking) after? For a non-monk, non-barbarian, the speed before recalculation should be 2.25; does it drop to 2.0 after? If so, this is not something special for monks (even though monks reap double benefits from it), but something that affects all characters. --The Krit 18:26, February 6, 2011 (UTC) :: The speed with both expeditious retreat and haste after recalculation (from adding and removing a speed effect) would be 2.25 * base speed + monk bonus * base speed. Speed increases/decreases stack by multiplication (that is adding a 10% speed bonus multiplies your speed by 1.1), however, those without monk speed will have speeds capped at 1.5 * base speed. So normally expeditious retreat and haste don't seem to stack as they each get you to the normal cap, but those with monk speed can easily see that they do in fact stack. WhiZard 13:11, February 7, 2011 (UTC) Eye glow bugs I don't know, may be It was some bug or what, but I've made female evil monk (with dark-coloured skin etc), and her eyes didn't glow. My game version is 1.32. Could you answer, is this a bug or what. -- 82.215.71.207 :There were some bugs regarding glowing eyes. You should upgrade to the latest patch (1.67). -- Alec Usticke 22:39, 28 July 2006 (PDT) Regarding unarmed vs kama I'm not really sure how it works but from the description, I believe Flurry of Blows works with Kama as well? If so, since we can't really "dual wield" our fists, but we can, with Kama if we took up Ambidexterity + Two-weapon Fighting. Would Kama be much superior in comparison with just bare fists? 15:32, 28 August 2006 *A monk can get more attacks with two kamas than with fists, but a kama's base damage is always going to be 1d6, while a monk's fist can eventually do 1d20 or 2d6 (depending on the monk's size). --The Krit 17:02, 29 August 2006 (PDT) *Logically speaking, there's absolutely no reason for a monk to attack slower (= less often) with fists than with weapons. Secondly a highly enchanted kama is always better than a fist in terms of damage: A fist maxes out at 10.5 damage/hit which is as good as a kama +7 so any kama that's more highly enchanted than +7 will always outperform fists in damage. If you take into account criticals (keen + improved crit kama vs improved crit fist) you could argue that kama +6 (when average damage/hit > 22) or even +5 (avg dmg/hit > 44) kama will be enough in certain cases, if coupled with weapon master and/or devastating critical then kama +5s are practically as good as 1d20 fists. :Note: The above calculations and conclusions don't take into any account the extra attacks an off-hand kama offers. :Note 2: With 10 attacks a kama +5 (8.5/hit) does more damage than an 8 attack 1d20 (10.5/hit) fist. - G3, 06:54, 17 January 2007 (PST) :*Note 3: The above does not take into account any damage bonus on the monk's gloves. ;) --The Krit 22:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC) :*Note 4: Because I'm special. The average damage of an unbuffed kama is 3.5 to an unarmed attack of 10.5, with a difference of two attacks. You shouldn't take in to account enhanced damage on a kama, unless you're going to add the same to the fists. The exclusion here is spells. If you went that far you would then need to recalculate for every world you play on based on number of RDD (DarkFire and Flame Weapon Immunity) and power of gear. You may end up finding that although a kama does more damage on average, the superior damage of the fist is able to get through the damage resistance of a more tanky character. It's like the argument between a greatsword and a scythe, sure a greatsword does good damage all the time, but when a scythe criticals? -- 06:17, 22 October 2008 (UTC) :*Note 5: If you are comparing kamas and unarmed you also need to take into account the fact that kamas can be finessed, which gives you the option of a AC oriented DEX build. You lose some of the damage output, but in many situations its worth it (depends on server characteristics as well) -- 7 July 2009 ::* No, you do not need to take weapon finesse into account in this comparison, as unarmed strikes can also be finessed. --The Krit 11:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC) Devastating critical note I don't get the new note: "An unarmed monk with a high strength can qualify for devastating critical which can be used to make up for the apparent deficiency in unarmed damage compared to a dual-wielder." While the first part of the note is true, an armed monk with high strength can also qualify for devastating critical, and a dual-wielder gets more opportunities per round to score a devastating critical, so where is unarmed advantage? --The Krit 02:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC) *There's been no response, so I removed the note for now. It can go back if anyone can explain it. --The Krit 18:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC) *The diferent is that a critical hit with unarmed monk makes more damage that a dual-wielder. But devasting critical is not necesary, only a strength enough.--Leigeana Dankub 12:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC) :*This is not true, read the above discussion: Kamas can have enchantment boni. they also can be taken as weapon of choise when multiclassing with weapon master, encreasing crit-multiplier and critrange. none of this hase to do with being strenth based so, the note was therefor simply wrong. Kamas are stronger (in terms of raw damage), once you get beyond +6 enchantment. ::I also removed your multiclassing advice. shadowdancer is not the only MC option, to get epic dodge. further more: the epic dodge page already mentiones, what is necessary to get that feat. ::on the other hand, it is debatable, whether or not to implement some good multiclassing tipps to some if not all classpages. but i think the wiki should stay a source of information, leaving the multiclassing thing for the characterbuilding forums.Gruftlord 16:48, 28 February 2008 (UTC) :*The note was about devastating critical, and my question was how is devastating critical (unarmed strike) supposed to be superior to devastating critical (kama)? (It would need to be superior in order to make up a deficiency. Whether or not that deficiency exists is a separate question.) --The Krit 22:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC) Level progression table formatting Looks really odd especially on levels where monks get multiple feats. Would it be worthwhile to reformat this so that each level gets two lines with the second line dedicated solely to feats? This would also mean that the remaining stuff in the first line would have a bit more space. Mysticjester 12:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC) Take that back. That looks even odder. How about a separate table for monk feats altogether? Mysticjester 12:51, 28 June 2008 (UTC) Miscellaneous comments Monks, sorcerers, and wizards all show in NWNWiki that they gain armor proficiency with robes, that's not an actual proficiency. Robes are wearable by everyone regardless of proficiencies (or lack thereof). 22:51, 21 August 2008 (UTC)